Howdy, hello, and goodday.
Just wanted to take a few minutes out of my day and share a few experiences. For years now if people have had monks questions, or wanted to know about damage gear, or thought they wanted to try the class they have came to me. My original monk (post purge) was made on day one of being back from the purge. In fact if I remember right other than staff the only account/player older than mine is Piirz and we rarely see Paul anymore. Post purge I was also the first player to take a monk to hero and beyond to lesser lord. In 4 days, it will have been five years ago that he was created. In in all that time only one other person to take a monk to that level of skill and they are no longer with us. So I think it would be safe to say I am the resident expert on the monk class of our current age.
From an RP stand point this is my favorite class in the game hands down. With who else in the middle of a quest and I stipt myself naked, hand my belongings to a level 300 mob (4 years ago when no one had reached level 100 yet) and tell hug him to prove my quests groups trustworthness or get drunk and walk to the fountain and slap a fireshielded dragon to save a friend (remember those good days Jorn?) and walk away from it? He's had fits of depression to wear he's attempted suicide (thank you to my saviour Aldeis and his wonderful rp that day) and gone though such joys people commented that he should be commited. I've boosted Baenothen could walk to hell and back on his hands, and then forced to do so in RP (thank you Myrrima).
I've gotten phone calls from staff laughing so hard they couldn't breath and spit his beer all over his computer that Baenthen has made him laugh so much (you are missed Alendamar) But for all I've done with this character, for all the good times.....he's nothing, he's broken, and above all flawed. Due in part to myself. In a mad rush to run to our brand new game those 5 years ago I
didn't make the greatest of choices and rushed through his creation. Baenothen has a natural luck and charisma of 3. This caused me to lose 2 con and several deaths along with having 350 natural hit points at the lesser lord level. Monk skills are also highly based off of luck, moreso in my experience than any other class in the game. So I had a rough go of things. Add on top of that I leveled this character on the old game server, where lag was ever the issue (Look out! Lagzilla! Good times) No one wanted to group with a monk hitting 8 8 8, it lagged everyone down.
Did all those 8's get your attention? "Wow, thats crazy, thiefs don't hit that fast with daggers!"
All those hits don't mean a lot unless there is something behind them. Thats another issue with the monk class. In my experience, monks are probably the MOST gear orientated class in the entire game. We much have damage, str, or luck in every single slot we have to COMPETE with another class. You give a warrior any 2 handed sword and he'll bash you into the ground and give your head to your mother. A dagger to an assassin? Sleep with one eye open. What about mages? Naked he's coming at you with 6 charms all over 1k hp hitting you with disintigration spell melting your face.
Ok, ok, ok, now you're all thinking. "You can't trust your view, your guy had 3 luck! And what makes you the expert on what classes need and who is better than the next?" With the exception of the illusionist class, I have taken ever class in the game to 99 and deleted just cause I got bored. And yes, monks are the hardest. And to prove my point further....got a new monk. He's leveled with 25 luck and 24 con, for the past 50 levels or so and is currently around level 75. Still insanly hard to manage that much progress. He's having the exact same issues with the game and my original monk did.
The biggest reason that Baenothen retired was....it was just plain too hard. I couldn't do it. At level 139 (current) level 99 warriors have killed me, I have difficulties clearing out the dwarven mines that a level 90 cleric can solo, and I simply can't kill the mobs the load the gear I need to be better. So I got to thinking, lets make it easy, lets get one of those big bad warriors types and just run over everyone. But since I hate being so traditional, took another route and made me an elf warrior, Odamius. And I am very very proud of him. He's gona above and beyond my hopes and expectations and a character. But then something happened.
Before I get started out I want to point something out, I am NOT bashing anyone and I'm not calling anyone a cheat or anything close. We currently have mages and clerics in out game that when they wish to, can have 50 stops all with anywhere from 1000 to 2000hp, one of them is even wielding the biggest 2 handed sword in the game, still brining those 6, 7, 10 charms against you, throwing that acid, laughing as his fireshield destroys you. So whats the point of having that big bad warrior when I tiny little wizard bull rushes you like a 1200 giant? So I went back to my pride and joy. I figured I'd fix the problems of my first project and make a new monk, a better monk. And as I've stated above, that didn't work out so well. Here's just a few of my issues.

Meditation-monks regen skill. It used to have hp and move regen on it. Now it's just moves. As explained to my by the higher powers, it's praying for moves, like a cleric for mana. I haven't noticed that it's much better than sleeping except that I get to see whats going on. And if it's like praying, why did I have to learn and master the skill when prayer is given to everyone mana user or not? Currently meditation serves little to no practical use.

Damage-Mages charm and cast spells and portal, thives steal and pick locks. The clerics can heal and buff you. Assassins have that (very high) chance of getting that one shot kill on you. Warriors and barbs the the tanks and primary damage dealers (except for our above mentions super soldier/weapon x mutants) And all of the other classes fit somewhere in between as a combonation or variant of those base classes. Where do monks go? What are we? Here's a bit from the game help files:
"Monks are very specialized. Although a monk can use a variety of
weapons they are truely proficient in very few. A monks true ability
is with their bare hands. A very skilled monk is a remarkable bare
handed combatant, and has faster attacks than anyone else. A monk
practices rigorous mental and physical training as well as discipline
to become superior."
Superior to what? So what if I can SLAP you 100 times before you draw your sword, there is no damage behind it. If they are so specialized why can't I kill you 10 different ways with my pinky finger like a Navy Seal?

Dodging/AC-We're supposed to be quick, agile, cat like. People call us MONKIES!!!!! Why are monks held to the same doding blocking system as a 1500 pound giant or a fat lazy cleric tied up in his robes? A monk should be well near impossible to hit. Yes we should take a lot of damage when we do get hit due to lack of armor, but thats the hard part, managing to hit us.

Stance/skills- If we're so specialized, so skilled why do we stand there the entire fight punching at you and nothing else? Why can't I disarm or trip someone? Speant years honing my body to peak physical conditioning and I didn't ever learn "if you twist your body this and and move your right foot back a little (stance) I could do more damage, dodge better, take a hit better?

Baiscly I want to know what makes a monk special? No thats not it, I want to know what makes us equal? Warriors are tanks and damage dealers, if they catch that assassin he's in trouble. But if the assassin is sneaky enough he walks right up behind that mage and puts a dagger in his heart. And the smart mage never gets close enough for that to happen, he launches lighting bolts from afar striking you down. There is nothing currently that gives monk any attempt at playing a FAIR GAME. I know this game is first and formost supposed to be a roleplay game not hack and slash. But face it, we are far far from that goal. You've got to hack and slash and build yourself up so that when you rp some dink doesn't come by and rape you. I wanna know what all you think. I've litteraly been singing this song and dance for five years now and the only chance I've seen is hp regen being taken away from meditation. Monks have LOST ability.

So I don't seem like I'm totally slamming everything. I do want to help, this is important to me.

How about an addition to the monk and probably a few other classes that will help in a small way.

How about the ability to see what kinda of damage potential an item or weapon has? Mages can see that an item gives power points to them through item lore. Clerics can see mana through item lore. What good does seeing either of that do for a monk? Melee classes (except monk) get armory, they can see what kind of stopping power a piece gives. Possibly give it to monks, ninjas, assassins, and warriors (barbs aren't really smart enough, theyll use anything as a club) but the smart fighters could see it.

look bracers "You see no potential for this item as a weapon"
look boots "These may possibly by used as a midly effective weapon" 1 point damage
look sword "You see major potential for this as a weapon" 5 points damage

I don't know, just an idea

This is purely as a player, and not as a staff member. I honestly have no idea how Nezmar feels about it, so this is all personal speculation.



I put monks in with the same bag as ninjas. They sound really cool, but even after you get them up there, they're kind of lackluster. I think the cure for these two classes would be to make them more skill orientated.

Give monks and ninjas more damage and defense. Their lives depend on it. They don't have the hit points that warriors and barbarians do. Or heck, even paladins or rangers for that matter. Ninjas have backstab, and that's cool, except (as far as I know) ninjas don't have any gear that can help with their backstab. Then again I've never played a ninja, so I don't know.

Monks... Well, they do have some skills to help with their attack and defense. Unfortunately in my experience (granted, it's slightly limited as I've only had a couple of monks in DLDS, and I've also had two little ones, less than level 60 on both) the skills you get aren't really that noticeable. Comparably to any other class, you don't seem to have any better of a defense. The offense isn't really noticeable, especially when you compare it to a warrior wielding a normal 2H sword.

With a monk, you have to wear pretty much every piece of gear in the game that gives you any damage at all just to be effective. Unfortunately the majority of said gear doesn't offer much (if any) defense.

I know it's kind of apples to oranges, but... Take a level, say, 130 monk without gear. Then, take a level 130 warrior with a basic 2H sword. A level 130 monk hits, what, 8 8 8, right? A level 130 warrior hits something like 3 4 4 or something like that. At any rate, the warrior will slaughter the monk. Hands down.

We actually tested something like this with my old ranger Vs Baenothen. My ranger didn't even hit 3 3 3 yet. I think it was 2 3 3. I took Baenothen down with something like 3-400hp left, and he was like 30 levels bigger than me!

So, I say, give those classes some more skills. Heck, give them an evasion skill or something. So that they can at least have a chance. Skill based, passive. Your skill versus their attack roll, or even just a random chance of evading dependent on your skill level. Heck, even if when it's mastered you could almost always (pending a skill check) evade one attack per prompt.

Then, give them some extra skills that enhance their damage so they're not so dependent on gear so much. They by far won't be a super class. Not with their paltry hit points (monks especially).

Anyways, I feel like I'm rambling now. But I just wanted to point out a few ideas along with giving Baeno my full support on this.

As for all the things said about ninjas, i'm wholeheartedly going to ignore them and just pass along the topic of importance. But so everyone knows, ninja is balanced; we may not be as cool 24/7; just remember that those that gamble high stackes in chance and luck either wing big or lose large.

Guess it's important to travel in squads for the time being,
and you've always got a friend in me.
In your weakness and faults I find only strenghts.

Thanks for pointing out some of your perspective though for us prosepctive seekers of meditation.

I thought a cool idea that might be nice for monks might be like a "third wind" spell (just an idea) that was an aura, similar to fireshield or sanctuary that allowed them to temporarily halve the cost of their moves. I think it'd be a fun buff spell, what do you guys think?

I like the idea of something having to do with saving the moves but making it an aura don't be very benefical. For the most part, a lot of monk gear has move regen on it. Early in your career it can but rough but later on move regen isn't too horrible. But to NOT be able to be sanced because setting it as an aura to save a few moves wouldn't be a fair trade off. But if you were to make it a short term spell, maybe 3 minutes and kept it an aura with no cost to moves, I'd make that trade over sanc. The problem is monks have absolutly no spells, even into their avatar career so they have no mana or arcane pool to draw from.

I agree Monks really need some help, These guys live to fight thats what they do so it kind of seems wierd that they can't take a hit i would even go as far to say give them tough hide or something as even though they are damage dealers i would say all the training getting hit would at least toughen there skin, I also think they should be called Brawlers or something lol. But yeah it seems a monks 8 hits dont even do real damage on high stops all they seem to acomplish is wasteing alot of moves. So i 100% agree monks need help.
Erac

Just an update for those of you watching the issue. For all that (as the help file puts it) rigorous physical training, it sure doesn't help my conditioning any. The newest monk does have the +1hp per level racial trait and I've upgraded to 25 luck and 25 con from 25/24. And those last 10 levels or so he's had 3 to 4 hp gains. Making him one monster of a PHYSICAL fighter. Can anyone give any ideas why we shouldn't start taking mana from clerics and hp from barbs to make things a touch more even?

I'm STRONGLY in favour of doing some serious reworking on the monk class for balancing. I've played the majority of classes/races/alignments that this game has to offer and monk is one of the few I havn't tried. I've been tempted many times because they seem like such cool different fighters but in order for a monk to do damage, you've got to deck it out in damage equipment that offers little to no stopping in most cases. This results on a huge imbalance, warriors/cavs/barbs as other melee classes can have HUGE stopping and cause MASSIVE damage with their two handed swords at the sacrifice of not being able to cast spells.

Monks suffer the ailment of not being able to cast spells but they're not even really that physical? I really think monks need to be raised on par to be able to take damage and deal damage is warriors and other melee fighters when properly equipped. Monks are primarily PHYSICAL characters and their attributes do not reflect it.

Some ideas that I thought could be incorporated to make this awesome class more appealing:

The speed factor, monks should be HARD to hit, they have horrible HP that goes quickly so they really do need to be more difficult to hit than the average character, it just makes sense.

I definitely think a natural RIS would be a great attribute for monks to have, monks train spiritually and strengthen their bodies to take so much more impact than others can without flinching or feeling the brute of the impact. Warriors rely on armor to deflect blows, monks rely on strength of their skin and will to deflect blows and history shows monks do it damn well.

Their offense is crazy, 8 hits a prompt, I love seeing it, but when the damage is reduced so much the ability for causing no damage due to armor protection is just awful. I really think monks would benefit from their core damage INCREASING with their level. It would take some tweaking and a great deal of testing for fairness but I think say... a lesser level monk should be able to actually punch a lesser avatar warrior. Currently it would most likely be straight 0 damage from the monk.

Considering monks sacrifice the HP of other melee classes, the ability to wear a great deal of stopping as other melee classes, and the ability to cast spells of casting classes i STRONGLY believe their damage should be proportionally higher. They ONLY fight well and sustain when grouped with others and must always assist in combat, never as a central tank, and their steam engine of movement points runs out TOO fast without a caster on hand. I think their damage definitely needs to increase and the damage being proportional to the level i think would remedy the imbalance.

The last thing I would love to see... ok, so I've been doing some reading on Bruce Lee, anybody reading this should totally check out his training regime if they get the chance that's totally how I see a monk training. The feats he does seem unrealistic but are all a result of strength of mind and body as monks should be. His one inch punch! I totally think it would be a cool way for a monk to start off a fight, almost like a backstab. I might be stretching on this one, but i'd just find it super cool stealth classes have stabs, cavaliers/paladins have charges, casters have power word kill/dispel good/evil. Why can't monks have a massive damage dealer that isn't as random as stunning blow? Lee could send a 200lb guy flying 15 feet with a punch that started an inch away from the opponent and 0 retraction of his arm. I'd love to see monks pulling these kinds of feats off in this game

- The person with too many names

a berserk type critical skill