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 Post subject: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:10 pm 
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I hope people are willing to help with their ideas of what makes a good cheater proof multiplaying rules system.

Truthfully I think and hope that Nezmar has 0 tolerance for cheating as well; and if he didn't I don't think Distant Lands would be nearly as good as it is...

Truthfully it was never my intention to Threaten anyone... the truth is though, I intend to make a long stay here; so at this point I need to feel secure to do that. (This is very representative of how anyone could potentially feel as a newcomer bearing witness to the interpretations of our multiplaying rule...) I didn't intend to threaten to quit - as much as I felt it was important that I be honest about my new insecurity while everyone else was being very quiet.

Lets build some hard coded punishments maybe for multiplaying?

I think that multi-playing destroys the integrity of the game... I've played games like shadowbane and seen keycloned groups of 10 characters all controlled by one person...

You know, stasis punishments lasting for as little as 15-30 minutes and lasting as long as a month or more seemed to be really effective in games such as Dragonrealms... that is an option

I don't mean to suppose that this is how it must be but I would certainly like to see this topic given attention; of course all this is Subject to consensus.

1) Having access to more than one account at anytime. (1st offense: Account deletion of 1 or more accounts)

2) Using any character to spell up a friend and then grouping with that
friend with another character. (A good guideline is to wait 15 minutes
before grouping with another character that you've given spells to.) (1st offense: warning, stripping of buffs. 2nd offence: death of highest level character and losing a level 3rd offence: at this point you are pushing it.)

3) Using your characters to benefit one another. (Death, loss of exp or eq etc. and graduating punishments would work for the next ones.)

4) Using your character to retrieve another one of your character's corpse or their items.

5) Using two characters on the same account to accomplish the same ends. IE : Fighting a MOB or player with two characters, using keys from one character to unlock a door while another passes, using two characters to try and solve a puzzle (Remember this only counts if your characters are on the same account... if you have two accounts you fall under #1 and thats WAY worse!!!)

6) While actively using a Roleplaying approved character, you cannot act with your roleplaying character based on any knowledge you may have gleamed from playing a different character. (The roleplaying approved thing is VERY important... it means before this rule can affect your character... you must apply for it... + you can never pass 99 without it. It will ensure that big players set a good example for little ones and it provides them time to understand.)

I think that for #6 it's very important to understand that its not very enforceable to expect people not to do this... and that's why I mentioned a timer that would prevent people from entering a zone they were in on a seperate char... but I think that making sure the rule is RP specific and making people make the choice to follow this rule by applying for RP might make it work.

Can anyone else maybe help shake some ambiguity out of it for me... or help fill in any things I may have left out?

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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:50 pm 
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How about for multiplaying, instead of this:

Current multiplaying rules wrote:
Multi-playing in any form is not allowed, the penalty for doing so can be
found in the "rules".

Multi-playing (multi-accounting) consists of the following:

1) Having access to more than one account at anytime.

2) Using any character to spell up a friend and then grouping with that
friend with another character. (A good guideline is to wait 15 minutes
before grouping with another character that you've given spells to.)

3) Using your characters to benefit one another in any way, shape or form.

4) Using your character to retrieve another one of your character's corpse.

5) Fighting the same creature with two different characters.

This list is not all inclusive, as we are sure that at some point someone
will find a way other than we have listed here. Best rule of thumb is to
always use common sense.


We try this on for size:

Multiplaying rules proposal wrote:
Multi-playing in any form is not allowed, the penalty for doing so can be
found in the "rules".

Multi-playing (multi-accounting) consists of the following:

1) Creating, owning, having access to or using more than one account
at a time.

2) Transferring knowledge between characters, including but not limited to:
  • Grouping with a player, switching characters to "spell up" or in any other
    fashion benefit that player or any other player(s) in the game (this includes
    corpse/item retrieval or killing an NPC to remove the other player's "criminal"
    status,) regardless of whether or not you log back in as your previous character
    or remain
  • Switching characters to kill an NPC that has either killed your character,
    has loaded with an item you want or having any other interaction with
    any NPC by two or more of your characters.
  • Otherwise using your characters to benefit one another in any way,
    shape or form.

3) Transferring items between characters on your account or assisting another
player in doing so. This also includes the transfer of game currency between
characters on your account or assisting another player in doing so.

This list is not all inclusive, as we are sure that at some point someone
will find a way other than we have listed here. If you are unsure whether or not
something could be considered multiplaying, consult staff before doing it.


Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Not bad. It certainly sounds lawyerish!

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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:33 pm 
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Excellent, now we are making some progress. Thanks for bringing it down a notch, let's see if there's anything we can improve here.

My main comment about it is that it doesn't really add anything in my mind, it points out some further examples of things that are clearly multi-playing based on the existing rules.

Is that what we need? More examples of how you can cheat? Or long complicated lists of various punishments?

We'll never be able to list all the different combinations that are multi-playing and, of course, the more stuff you list the fewer people will read it in its entirety. Additionally, I believe we run the risk of making it more ambiguous by adding language that really doesn't tell you anything and might confuse those who would naturally follow the rules. Let me give an example. Not to pick on Vulsin , but as an example, his changes state, "Transferring knowledge between characters" is multi-playing. Does this mean I have to forget my way from the Fountain to the Inn when I create a new character? From a roleplaying standpoint that makes COMPLETE AND TOTAL SENSE (and inside a loud voice in my head screams YES!!!), but how many level 1 characters are roleplay approved? Better yet, how many level 1 characters want to 100% roleplay their characters? Sadly, at this point at least, not enough. Now, that said, the example I gave (knowing how to get the Inn) doesn't give your character any real benefit in the game (saving a few moves, I suppose one could argue). Clearly killing a NPC because he is hunting one of your other characters or has some item one of your other characters dropped, or whatever, falls under "Using your characters to benefit one another in any way, shape or form." These benefit your character by allowing them to avoid death and get back an item they rightfully lost, respectively. But knowing how to get to the Inn? We cannot expect (especially new) players to divorce their general knowledge of the game between each character. Can we? How would you even begin to remember which character had been where? Especially if they were close in level. Again, from a roleplaying perspective, I believe it makes all the sense in the world, but if you are new to the game and are trying to get acquainted with the world and its interactions, it seems like a lot to ask.

As to the different punishments and why I feel this is not the way to go. First, clearly not all multi-playing is cheating to the same degree and while we don't always immediately just delete your account(s), it seems to me the main point of a penalty is a deterrent, right? So why not just leave it as essentially "If you multi-play, we reserve the right to delete all related accounts from the system". That's a pretty good deterrent! I'd say about as good as you are going to get. And in cases of flagrant blatant (and/or repeated) abuses of the multi-playing rules, we will, of course, stick you with this penalty so that it DOES have teeth. I see no reason to list other penalties as it only tells would be cheaters how far they can push the rules without incurring a "real" penalty. It also requires us to list out all the different things that are multi-playing... what penalty does someone get who multi-plays by doing something that isn't listed? If you generally mind the rules and don't cause trouble and you accidentally step across the line, it is nearly certain you'd not receive the full force of this penalty. At some point, you've simply got to trust the Staff, we run the game. There's no way around that.

If anything, maybe we should just go with (everything else is really just examples of these two rules):

1) Having access to more than one account at anytime.
2) Using your characters to benefit one another in any way, shape or form.

Does that mean we won't change it? Not necessarily. We've changed other stuff I didn't necessarily agree with. I can tell you this... ultimately my inclination is to do what Myrrima suggests as I believe she is currently the person most affected by this rule. (You can't possibly imagine the administrative and even personal nightmare this rule can become -- people get upset when you delete them, imagine that.) Comments Myrrima?

Best regards to all,

--Nezmar


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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:45 pm 
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

1) Having access to more than one account at anytime.

2) Using any character to spell up a friend and then grouping with that friend with another character. (A good guideline is to wait 15 minutes before grouping with another character that you've given spells to.)

3) Using your characters to benefit one another.

4) Using your character to retrieve another one of your character's corpse or their items.

5) Using two characters on the same account to accomplish the same ends.

6) While actively using a Roleplaying approved character, you cannot act with your roleplaying character based on any knowledge you may have gleamed from playing a different character.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Not too complicated... I would hope you as GMs punish people equally... but truthfully you could keep standardized or fairly standardized punishments a secret and just leave it at, "We may decimate you if you purposefully break these rules." as a sturdy wall against cheaters.

I really do think that it's ACCEPTABLE to tell people who are approved for roleplaying that they cannot use the knowledge from alternate characters to their benefit... however expecting a n00b to do that is hardly fair as Nezmar said... or anyone even if they don't want to roleplay. In this case rule number 6 would become a rule only after RP

I don't think any examples really need to be given if the rules are clear but wordings like any way shape or form... scare me!

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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:23 pm 
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I personally feel it's impossible to list "all" ways to multi-play, for two reasons -
1.) I don't want to give those who are inclined to cheat a shopping list of 'how to' things they could do.
2.) Players constantly amaze me with the ways they find around things - meaning, they will invent new ways to cheat.

We also can not list an ironclad "punishment" as I strongly feel education about the rules comes first and foremost. Many times I've taken a lot of time and explained things till someone understands it. If someone continues to have sincere disregard for the rules (which translates to disrespect of the game and ALL the other players and staff) then we take it to a new level. It also depends on how the violation happened. If it was in RP it's most likely going to be hugely different than if someone just new did something they didn't realize was wrong.

The important thing is to first and foremost remember this is a game. Games are suppose to be fun, but any game I have ever played online or in person have rules. We also, as Nezmar said, are always open to change. But some basic rules must remain still.

The only thing I'd wish to add to the rules is for someone to ask for clarification on a specific situation or circumstance if they question it. I did just have that happen recently - One of the little understood ways to multiplay by having control of more than one account is this - Player A is a Warrior, Player B is a cleric - Warrior wants to level, cleric does not but hey, grouped you can set a trigger to auto assist the warrior. When warrior runs out of moves or their sanc drops, warrior whispers to cleric "moves" "sanc" "full heal" - whatever fits. Then the cleric leaves the keyboard and walks away. That is clear to me that the Warrior is controlling the account of the cleric. If we see that we will ask you to stop and explain why it's wrong, which rule it violates. Do I believe the ones involved meant to break the rules, no. I hope they don't choose to anymore. I wish they'd asked before. As someone stated before, generally, if it 'feels' wrong, ask. Before you do it.

I don't think it's out of line to find your way to Dallenport with one of your characters then use that info to find your way again on an alt. If it's done in RP, I still don't think it's out of line, but this is where the line of good vs great Role Player kicks in. A good one will know the way, that's fine. A great one will "find" the way in RP.

Now I'm rambling. But if clarification is needed about a situation, please, ask. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:01 pm 
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I tend to over-think things sometimes. Occasionally it's a good quality to have, but more often than not it will just make things more complicated than they have to be :P

I've got friends who are lawyers, a couple more friends in law school, and I used to manage networks for a lot of law firms... I guess that's where that came from, although I'm not really one to do any lawyering. I have better uses for my time, like making networks talk to each other and fixing broken stuff... and working on DL! :)

Nothing is going to be 100% foolproof. There's a saying I heard once (knowing me, probably from a cartoon) that basically states "every time you make something foolproof, someone just makes a better fool." The more complex a rule gets, the more it becomes just a method of enforcement by confusion as it does enforcement by education.

I guess, the text found in 'help multiplaying' should read:

Vulsin made a funny wrote:
Don't multiplay, because multiplaying is bad, m'kay.


At least my legal-sounding mumbo jumbo can be used to create examples of why it won't work (as is, anyway), as Nezmar pointed out! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:09 am 
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The exact example Myrrima gave earlier (which should prolly be ed. "found a tricky way to utilize the interface" because we're making more shopping lists =) after some consideration falls under "Having acess..." and should NEVER be attempted ... but situations like that will arise when the people justify it by talking on the phone together where player b gives orders and player A controls both characters... but you FORCE them to do something... It breaks rule #1 clearly in that light even if the living active will thats supposed to be controlling the character IS... the testament of man's cleverness; that he can figure out how to do things hes never seen before... the true testament of man's cleverness, figuring out it's a good idea to stop before it's cheating/too late!

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 Post subject: Re: Lets build some hardcoded rules for multiplaying?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Just found this post. I knowingly broke multiplay rules. I did many small things that benefited my lower level characters and I won't list those here because no one else should be doing them. Well guess what? I stepped on a line I didn't consider a full form of multiplay, it was still in a small way another action that could be understood as multiplay and I guess with all that adding up, I got burned. So, my account was deleted. It was fair, I got in a few words about what happend, we discussed and staff made the choice. In a way it was good, my character had touched so much gear in the game that a character recreation would have been a further doom to any chance of playing again. So the entire account was deleted and I started over with some encouraging from a fellow player about a month later. I don't play much for different reasons, but staff allowed me to play again and I get on from time to time and cast a sanc or two, maybe some exp.

I agree that a list of all methods of rule breaking doesn't need to be added. If you add all the ways you can think of to break rules, people might try it. Sure they can say it wasn't on the list if they get caught, but just use common sense. Breaking of the rules, any rules should be punished. Players can report things in private and staff can look into it. I just hope that all rule breaking is punished equally among all players no matter how long you've played or how good of friends you are irl. Sadly I don't see that happening sometimes. It's always easier to place punishments on people you don't know.

There are methods of killing mobs that some people don't like different classes doing. That's not rule breaking, it's using the abilities of your class to an advantage. I've seen some things removed for different classes, many of them way overpowered, some I felt just gave other classes who couldn't do that an advantage. There's always a battle between the strength of casters and hitters but it's all how you play.

Lets see, other topics around rules or getting advantages on the game... RP. Don't have non rp people help you out. I've done that and it felt dirty and kept me alive, but was totally uncalled for. I've seen a few other players do it, but it's still not cool. Idea, no interaction of any kind allowed between rp and non rp. You try to cast anything or do anything, "You must be rp to perform this action." Put in that you cannot follow an rp player either.

Oh! Haha. If you call a staff member stupid, or say they're lieing, or do any other thing knowingly to get a rise out of them.... it's not gonna end well for you. A handful of people I know did that, they no longer play here.

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